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SAI NILGIRI
Oct 13, 2012 - 6:18PM
BOWSPRIT
Hi Seadog Folk,
I just happened to search this site for information on Seadog bowsprits. I did find 2 articles but they happen to be notes people have written more to each other than of any general interest.
I wish to ask a couple of questions on Seadog Bowsprits. My initial question is about the Seadog mast positioning (as it is connected to weather and lee helm issues) and then later move on to the bowsprit itself (which again have implications with regard to weather and lee helm).
I have heard it mentioned that Reg Freeman, when he first built the Seadog had the main mast a bit more aft than where it is today (especially with regard to the Deep Seadog). Please correct me if I am wrong.
I was reading in John Vigor’s book – The Practical Mariner’s Book of Knowledge, where he mentions that there are some factors that affect a boat’s balance. He mentions that ‘weather helm’ on deep keeled hulls is caused by the mast being positioned too far aft.
I was wondering if this was why Reg Freeman decided to move the mast forward in his later productions. Someone please enlighten me on this aspect or the reason why the main mast in the Seadog was moved forward in later productions.
That said; John Vigor then goes on to mention that ‘lee helm’ is caused if the mast is positioned too far forward. Do you think that the Seadogs have more of a lee helm than a weather helm or the other way around (due to the mast being placed forward)? Your input in this matter will be highly appreciated.
My next question is about the Bowsprit itself (lack of it on the original version of the Seadog as well as its possible hindsight advantages, as an add on feature). This is more of an open question. I wonder why Reg Freeman (the master boat architect that he was) did not fit a bowsprit for the Seadog. Could it have been that it would much more safe to have a blue water boat with the least amount of things to go wrong? Could it have been that he did not want new owners or crew to be put in danger of attending to sails attached to a bowsprit? What do you think it could be?
I was reading an online version of the book: CAPABLE CRUISER by Lin and Larry Paradey. Here it is claimed that: The staysail rig (as the Seadog is configured in its original form without a bowsprit) is a great advantage for cruising offshore, especially if the staysail is large enough for the helm of your boat to be balanced with the staysail and a single reef in the main. This will let you move your sail plan inboard as the wind increases. It provides a multipurpose, quickly shortened sail arrangement with only three working sails (staysail, main and mizzen sail).
He further states that: in order to have a boat with an easy helm – one that has a tendency to safely, but not too quickly head into the wind if a gust heels the boat sharply – the centre of effort of the sail plan should be between 15 and 19 percent forward of the center of the lateral plane of the keel. (this center is the point where the boat should remain broadside if a towline is attached and you try to drag the hull sideways through the water). If the centre of effort is farther forward than this, the boat could develop a potentially dangerous lee helm. If it is farther aft, she would develop weather helm and could become tough to handle in heavy winds.
Taking this above point into consideration, please could someone help me understand how the Seadog performs according to these principles.
Does the Seadog have more of a Lee helm or a Weather helm? [I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION if nothing else]
Did the older Seadogs have much of a Weather helm that Reg wanted to correct, and so moved the mast forward on later productions?
I know that it has been mentioned that the Seadog is a poor windward performer. The Paradeys in their book mention that: A boat with lee helm has difficulty holding her bow up to the wind and seas and therefore is a poor windward performer. He also states that: A cutter rig is a very good cruising design. It gives you better performance to windward than a two masted rig (ketch etc).
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SAI NILGIRI
Oct 14, 2012 - 10:23AM
Re: BOWSPRIT
I thought it a good idea to be a bit more clear about what exactly I was trying to get clarified.
Q 1. Does the Seadog have more of a Lee helm or a Weather helm? ( this is without any bowsprit)
Q 2. Does the addition of a bowsprit help correct any Lee helm if any? (this question could possible be answered by those who have a bowsprit fitted on their Seadog or by some one who can say what the likely out come would be if one was to choose to fit a bowsprit)
Q 3. Does any one have any idea about the length of bowsprit one would need to attach to the Seadog to make the boat balance well? (in feet if possible -extending outward from the bow)
Q.3 Do you think one would need to engage the technical knowhow and knowledge of a sailmaker or boat builer to work out such details of ideal length of bowsprit for the Seadog?
Well sorry if I have asked so many questions. I am really keen to know such matters. Nothing wrong in asking i suppose even if i do not get all my answers.
Thanking you. Any input will be greatly appreciated.
I think this is an important matter but then again, choosing to fit a bowsprit has its advantages and choosing not to fit one would also have other advantages. However, so far from what I have seen is that all Seadog owners who have choosen to fit a bowsprit to their Seadog have gone for a fixed bowsprit. This has its advantages (safer to work from) and disadvantages (increased mooring fees). However, I wonder if a movable, adjustable bowsprit would work well and slove the problem of added boat length and extra mooring fees. This ofcourse is another aspect to be considered regarding bowsprits - fixed or movable. (By movable I mean either retractable or raising up type).
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Graham
Oct 16, 2012 - 2:10PM
Re: BOWSPRIT
Afternoon Sai,
Most of your posting is well beyond my knowledge or experience, only had Dougal since 1996 and still learning :-)
I am not aware the seadog mainmast has moved during production nor am I aware that any owners have later moved them. I would strongly recommend that if anyone ever did then it would need a lot of thought as the original position is place over the forward bulkhead to give it support, many owners have supplemented this strength by adding a 'post'.
We have found that Douugal is generally well balanced (but bear in mind that we have a taller mast since changing to in-mast reefing so may not be typical). If we do find that the mizen mast is taking over the steering we either increase the size of the genoa (assuming it is reefed) or take the mizen down.
hope this helps.
Graham
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Dougal
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Eric Richardson
Oct 16, 2012 - 2:32PM
Re: BOWSPRIT
Afternoon Sai
The mast was moved aft not forward on the later models.
I bought Taliesin in 1986, I used Freeman the surveyor to examine her. In his response he said that she was a mark 2 with a slightly different superstructure and pointed out that the coach roof was slightly depressed under the mast foot. He said that in the construction of the mark 2 they had moved the mast aft slightly. Unfortunatly I cannot recall the distance but I have 3" in mind. He said a modification drawing had been issued which called for additional mast support.
Just what Graham is refering to.
The extra support was a piece of Iroko about 6" X 1.25" screwed and glued to the back of the mast support piller, this is in the main saloon just behind the heads door. When fitting this it needs to be slightly preloaded with the mast unstepped.
When done properly it enhances the cabin appearance.
I may have a photo if you are interested, I beleive many boats were done in this way.
Eric
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Ex Taliesin
David
Oct 16, 2012 - 4:55PM
Re: BOWSPRIT
The mast moving aft in later versions (I didn't know there was an actual MK2 version) and with a modification drawing being issued does fit in with mine (1970).......just before I bought her the PO had a new (and very substantial - 4 or 5 inches square?!) mast support added into the Saloon - so I guess the modification was never done!......I had always wondered why the original mast support was where it was (not exactly directly under the mast! - and also a tad light to my (untrained) eyes).
That was one of the jobs that wasn't 100% finished before I bought her, and took me a LOT of puzzling as to how to refit the forepeak door without cutting it and reducing the access.......and half of that was trying to match up my (limited) DIY woodworking skills! with a solution that I was capable of delivering.
Headliner not yet re-fitted. New Starboard and top door frame by me. The hinges fit onto the new mast support and allow the door to fold right back (see the bump stop on the bunk / settee face).
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Wayluya
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Graham
Oct 16, 2012 - 5:24PM
Re: BOWSPRIT
Looks beautiful, and well done for getting the image embedded in the forum page. The fully opening door must be nice, ours stops at 90 degrees from closed and it makes moving such things as bikes in and out most awkward.
My understanding is that the Mk2 is from about SeaDog 50. I was told that only the mk2 had a hatch in the saloon, but then someone told me that an earlier one (may have been 49) had one as well so maybe the got the idea from that one and modded the 'standard' design.
The mast support story has always puzzled me. Dougal is number 66 so clearly should be a Mk2 however the mast tabernacle (and later replaced by Seldon mast) is directly above the bulkhead with 2 bolts forward of it and 2 bolts aft. Perhaps we always sail more gently than most but we have never felt the need to add an additional support.
regards
Graham
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Dougal
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David
Oct 17, 2012 - 12:01PM
Re: BOWSPRIT
Inserting an image is done by using the BB Code (and copying the URL of the picture that is already online eslewhere on the internet).
Thanks for the comments ......like most things, if the result turns out well then hard to see the work and thought that went in. In this case that involved several years of moving the door around the saloon - and everytime muttering to self: "I must refit the effing the door!"
I used 270 degree hinges to get the door to open wide (I needed it to open past the port door frame / mast support as the new mast support pinched an inch of door space - and I needed it back!......the price was that I lost the door stay - hence the bump stop!).
I can't quite remember off the top of my head, but I think my mast is slightly to the aft of the bulkhead..........my guess is that the Seadog evolved over time, rather than had a formal transition between versions - even if (as sounds likely) there were a few times when more major changes were made........
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Wayluya
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SAI NILGIRI
Oct 21, 2012 - 11:07AM
Re: BOWSPRIT
Hi Graham, Eric and David,
Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate it very much.
From your kind responses, I understand that the mast in later models was moved further aft and I take it that this was specifically to increase ‘weather helm’. I see no other reason for doing so. From this I think I have got my answer to the question – Q 1. Does the Seadog have more of a Lee helm or a Weather helm?
I believe the original seadogs and may be even those with the mast moved further aft, still have some amount of lee helm that needs to be corrected. (So with this, I take it that the addition of a bowsprit could be used to correct such lee helm)
Eric, please could you either send me via email (sai_sharm@yahoo.com) the photos you said you had. It would be most useful. However, if you could place them here on the forum, it would be much better. Thank you in advance.
I feel good now! I have got an important piece of information to fit into this jigsaw puzzle I am trying to solve.
By the way….I was wondering if someone had a photograph of Reg. Freeman which could be placed on the home page of our website, in honour of the Seadog and its designer.
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SAI NILGIRI
Oct 21, 2012 - 12:28PM
Re: BOWSPRIT
Hi Seadoggers,
Back to the issue of adding a bowsprit.....I am now wondering if it is the right thing to do based on this article i was reading.
I was reading this article on the internet based on an out-of-print book written by Glen-L (name of book not mentioned) He suggests the following (among others that are not relevant to the SeaDog) to increase weather helm:
1. Step the mast farther aft
2. Increase size of the mainsail
3. Locate jib farther aft
4. Decrease size of the jib
5. Sail boat at greater angle of heel
6. Use fuller shaped mainsail shape
(Of course doing the opposite with the above points will help reduce weather helm)
Now with the information given by the others on the forum so far….I know that the mast was moved further aft as suggested in point 1 above. Now it is mentioned (in points 3 and 4 above) that the jib is to be located further aft and also reduced in size respectively, in order to increase weather helm.
The use of a bowsprit would not help with point 3 as it will now be further forward. However, with regard to point 4 the size of the jib could be made much smaller with the use of a bowsprit and a higher cut jib sail.
One thing I just realised is that, moving the jib further forward (will reduce weather helm) and reducing the size of the jib (will increase weather helm). So this is more a neutral situation. But I still think that this arrangement will help to increase weather helm. Moreover, having a moveable bowsprit that can be adjusted in length will surely help to make the necessary adjustments to balance the boat better.
I am kind of answering my own questions here, but the idea is to get feedback from others to know if I am moving in the right direction.
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