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We took the teak capping off the stern toe rail on Saturday to discover the wood substrate was 50% rotten. Obviously it once was many layers of perfectly sized and shaped pieces of curved plywood, none of which are any longer whole enough to give any sort of complete template. I fear it would take us ages to cut and trim replacement ply as a packing, especially as the expectation is we shall find the same problem in both port and starboard toe rails as well.
I guess we aren't the first Seadog owners to face this problem, so are there any other ways to pack out this space between the mouldings? Our thoughts go to expanding foam filler, but then there would be no foundation to screw the teak capping back down to. If anyone has a proven repair method, please let us know.
Thanks,
Dorothy & Keith
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Sea Lark
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John Lansdell
Nov 3, 2009 - 9:34AM
Re: Toe rail filler
We had the same problem on Twotails. In our case the gap was filled with sections of softwood, which had largely rotted away, and were originally held in place by horizontal countersunk bolts with dome nuts on the inboard end. In our case we found that the gaps between the upstanding sections of the hull and deck mouldings were not consistent. I had access to a supply of iroko offcuts and made up blocks to fit the gap, about 6 to 8 inches long and about 2.5 inches deep and epoxied these in the positions where the bolts had been with their top surfaces just short of flush with the top edge of the mouldings. The gaps between blocks and spaces below were filled with foam. In our case I was also making a completely new toerail as the existing one was damaged. Due my lack of carpentry skills in making elegant joints between the sections of the toerail I chose to cover the gaps with shaped stainlees steel cappings, under the forward, centre and aft fairleads on each side with one additional one where I could not get a plank of adequate length for the gap between forward and centre fairleads. The cappings were folded down over the sides of the toerail and protect it from chafe when the fairleads are in use. There were no centre fairleads originally, nor was there a fairlead on the stern, but these were added, and have proved to be most useful.
I hope this helps, but contact me if you have any further queries.
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Twotails
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David
Nov 3, 2009 - 3:10PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Do you have any photos of what is under their?
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Wayluya
John Lansdell
Nov 3, 2009 - 5:26PM
Re: Toe rail filler
I have no photographs. The deck moulding sits on a bed of mastic on a shelf standing out sideways into the hull, and is bolted to it. The inner surface of the uprights of deck and hull are raw grp, rough and uneven. I could do a sketch if necessary. I do have a sample of the wood which came out of the gap, but it is not a pretty sight!
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Twotails
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Philip Ellis
Nov 3, 2009 - 11:03PM
Re: Toe rail filler
I have just uploaded some photos to the Gallery these were taken last year when I replace the capping rails.
I can give you chapter and verse on the whole process, but this will result in a lengthy post.
So have a look at the first few photos then if you would like to know more then email me and I can answers any qustion you may have.
Philip
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Glyfada, ex Natuna
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Graham
Nov 4, 2009 - 7:18AM
Re: Toe rail filler
Photos now available in the 'technical' section on the gallery. Thanks Phillip.
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Dougal
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Debbie and Alan
Nov 4, 2009 - 12:46PM
Re: Toe rail filler
This is most opportune as I was thinking of investigating our toe rails this winter with the thought of creating a proper scupper drain midships to replace the hopeless drain arrangement existing. So great post for us, shows the power of the gallery too, well done Graham.
What a strange detail though! It strikes me that epoxying in 3" lengths of hardwood packer at strategic positions to take fixings for the toe rail and filling the remainder with closed cell foam may be the way to go. This would avoid the need for extensive shaping (or quantity) of timber packing and provide a flush surface to seal the toe rail onto. If the new toe rails were fabricated first then the jointing positions could be established and the hardwood packers placed appropriately.
Having seen this though I think we'll leave well alone for the moment!
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Star Dog
Dorothy & Keith
Nov 4, 2009 - 1:22PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Thanks everyone for the helpful responses. Somehow we thought ours wouldn't be the only Seadog to have this problem.
Dorothy & Keith
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Sea Lark
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David
Nov 4, 2009 - 2:28PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Thanks a lot for that folks - saves me having to remove anything to "Just have a look", at least until I have completed a few other things.......
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Wayluya
David
Nov 4, 2009 - 5:36PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Just trying to think this through (whilst folks are reading!).........
.......my Toe rail must be original and although now tidied up (A bit of scarfing, epoxy and filler - all covered in Sadolin ) it is on the list to replace.
I have had all the interior linings removed for the last 6 months and no sign whatsoever of any hull / deck leaks or movement - and given that under the Toerail is likely to also be rotten / wet I am assuming that this Toerail filler is not "overly" structural and does not form part of the sole waterproof barrier (i.e. once removed, if you filled the gap up with water - it won't dissapear into the cabin!).
Therefore instead of wood blocks and foam - why not pour in only Epoxy resin? (or an Epoxy / filler mix).....and then drill into to affix a new toerail with decent sized self tappers? Any thoughts on that approach?
I must confess that at the moment (for future low / zero maintanence) I am thinking either an Aluminium toe rail capping (kinda like near the Galley)or finished & painted Epoxy with stainless chafe pads as needed.......but time enuf to decide on that and of course that might involve a bowsprit
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Wayluya
Keith
Nov 5, 2009 - 1:02PM
Re: Toe rail filler
The main problem to filling with epoxy/filler is cost. Phil Ellis (Glyfada) has estimated the total volume at 50 litres and certainly at the stern rail, the only bit we have so far uncovered, the volume is far too big to use epoxy/filler alone. Epoxy/filler with lots of embedded wood does seem a reasonable option, though. However this would still mean cleaning and sanding the entire inside surface area of the cavity to enable the epoxy to bond properly and I'm not sure I can face that.... maybe a job just for Dorothy!
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Sea Lark
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David
Nov 5, 2009 - 3:19PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Quote: Keith
maybe a job just for Dorothy!
Well, let me know once she has practiced on yours
A very useful calculation that. Cheers. Epoxy not quite as cheap as Polyester. Will mull over things this winter. or so...........
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Wayluya
E Richardson
Dec 3, 2009 - 2:54PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Just a point, picked up in Alan & Debbie's note about the scupper drains. Some years ago one of the owners made some very good glassfibre scuppers which fitted through holes cut from the outside at deck level then glassed in place. The original water outlets at sea level were then sealed up and coated with Gel Coat.
Eric
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Ex Taliesin
Graham
Dec 3, 2009 - 9:56PM
Re: Toe rail filler
Hi Eric,
Been thinking about this for a couple of hours and just worked out a potential problem.
On Dougal (and I suspect many other SeaDogs) the gas locker drain links into the deck drain (I think!).
It took me several years to discover the gas locker drain, it is not obvious, especially when the gas bottles are in place.
Alternative arrangements are possible I know, for example TwoTails has a link with the water outlet on the antisiphon for the exhaust which works using the venturi affect. I am sure John Lansdell can explain to anyone interested.
Graham
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Dougal
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John Lansdell
Dec 4, 2009 - 10:10AM
Re: Toe rail filler
On Twotails there is a plastic pipe on the floor of the gas locker. This exits the locker into the void between locker and hull. It then goes down to a fitting on the hull just above the waterline. We have fitted a Beta engine in place of the Perkins (when we bought her it had 1.5 litres of water in the sump!). As a result we have a Vetus anti syphon fitting in place of the Parsons Box. The bleed from the Vetus unit uses the same pipe as the Parsons did, down to the hull fitting with the gas pipe on it. When the engine is running the bleed induces a flow of air from the locker overboard. When the engine is not running the fact that the gas is heavier than air means any leaks will naturally go overboard.
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Twotails
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E Richardson
Dec 4, 2009 - 11:03AM
Re: Toe rail filler
Good point Graham, the gas locker did drain to the same water outlet as the deck drains.
This always bothered me as it ment that the locker did not drain when heeled over.
Johns system sounds good. I always intended to see if I could fit a drain running down hill all the way to the transom which tends to be clear of the water on most points of sail and is only covered briefly even in a following sea.
Eric
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