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Mark
Jan 31, 2009 - 5:50PM
Gearbox problem
Went to move Salia down the pontoon today. Engine running fine, engaged gear, no drive. Took the filler plug out of the gearbox and the dipstick was was dry. It took a litre and a half to get it reading on the dipstick again.
Now we've had the boat for just on two years and I have to admit I have never checked the level. I was going to do it, honest. The reason I was moving the boat was to put it on a more convenient pontoon to start doing all those start of the season jobs. So I can't tell whether the level has taken 10 years to drop to the level it has or there has been a rapid drop in a very short time recently.
Anyway, moved boat ok engine engaged and ran fine. Switched it off and thought I would recheck the level and the transmission fluid on the dipstick has gone from red to a cloudy light brown - I would guess emulsifying.
So how much of a problem do I have? A bit of condensation that has caused it and nothing to worry about or is it signs of something serious? Where should I be looking now?
The only slight nagging worry I have is that at the end of last season, there were partly emulsified flecks of oil in the exhaust water when the engine started up. I put it down to injectors/fuel pump and it seemed to disappear. Is it conceivable that the transmission fluid is going out through the cooler and there is water coming into the gearbox the same way? Did the flecks of oil in the exhaust water stop because the gearbox had emptied itself through the cooler? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Any help would be appreciated.
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Salia
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Mark
Jan 31, 2009 - 5:52PM
Re: Gearbox problem
Forgot to say - engine is Perkins 4107
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Salia
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Philip Ellis
Jan 31, 2009 - 11:20PM
Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Mark,
Reading through your post a couple of things struck me.
Firstly, if the gearbox oil is not in the bilge then it left through the cooler and into the raw water circuit.
Secondly if the the new oil has emulsified, and it sound as though it has then that water can only have come from the cooler.
So remove cooler and check for failure,and prepare to replace, change the flexies at the same time if not done recently.
Next question, how to treat gearbox, removing and rebuild might be an overkill but would remove any future doubts, or alternately drain and refill two or three times and inpecting the oil at each drain, you will of course have to operate the gearbox prior to draining. But dont leave it without oil in for any longer than a day.
I cant go for the condensation theory!
Oil is an ATF (automatic transmission fluid) See earlier post from Eric re grades
I assume the box worked ok once you refilled it?
Might be worth asking Eric Richardson if he has some further advice.
Hope this is helpful.
Regards
Philip
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Glyfada
Eric Richardson
Feb 4, 2009 - 8:20PM
Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Mark
Sorry for the delay in getting to this, I go along with everything Phillip says. If the gearbox was leaking from the rear seal you would have oil in the bilge, and that much oil would show from the bellhousing if it was the front seal even with a blocked drain hole. Its almost a cert that you have an oil cooler problem. Do as Phillip says flush the unit through three or four times giving it a run of 10 to 20 minutes each time before refilling to level with automatic transmission fluid ATF from any quality oil company and I don't think you will have any problems.
Please post what you find so that we know the results.
Eric
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Ex Taliesin
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Mark
Feb 4, 2009 - 9:42PM
Re: Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Eric
What has also been suggested to me is that the drop in transmission fluid has caused the plates to slip and the contamination is the dust from the plates. So I am going to run it for a bit, see how it runs and see how quickly (or not) the level drops and where it is going to - this would seem to be the crux of the matter, has it been a sudden drop in level or has occured over a long period?
If it loses the fluid again it will need to come out for the seals or the heat exchanger changed. If the level doesn't drop I might just replace the transmission fluid a couple of times and see how I get on. Either way probably time to start looking round for a recon/exchange gearbox.
I have made an initial enquiry with Golden Arrow Marine in Southampton who can refurbish - I need to try and get the serial number of the box/engine. Any pointers where to find them would be good. Any other suggestions of engineers worth contacting?
Haven't been inclined to get head first down in the engine with the current weather but hoping to crack on with it later in the month
Mark
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Salia
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Eric Richardson
Feb 6, 2009 - 1:00PM
Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Mark
It is a struggle, but you can take the gearbox out with the engine in the boat. Its a toss up which is easiest depending on what lifting facilities you have.
If the fluid gets low enough you can get clutch slip and they are copper plates.
The gearbox is actually a simple piece of kit and can be overhauled by any good DIY enthusiast, all spares are still available. ASAP at beccles used to stock them.
Eric
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Ex Taliesin
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Eric Richardson
Feb 6, 2009 - 8:19PM
Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Mark
Sorry but I missed a bit in my last note, the brown colouring could be from the copper plates. I am saying copper, they may well be phosper bronze its a while since I stripped a borg warner velvet drive.
Eric
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Ex Taliesin
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Philip Ellis
Feb 6, 2009 - 8:51PM
Re: Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Eric & mark.
As of last summer I can confirm that the front and rear seals, gasket, O ring and the special nyloc nut that holds the gearbox half of the coupling in place were available from ASAP supplies at beccles and not to expensive either.
The nut which must be renewed also preloads the thrust bearing and from memory requires torque of 250ftlbs which is quite an effort.
An RTV silicone thread sealant is also reccomended, this to stop oil migrating along the thread.
Which turned out to be the cause of the small oil leak on my gearbox and not the seal!
The brass ID plate is attached to the gear box port side just forward of the oil filler.
I replaced all seals on mine 2008 but the engine was out of the boat at the time.
But I would go on to suggest that if no external leaks are visble than leave seal changes until the engine is out for general maintenance.e.g. inspecting the engine gearbox coupling.
Philip
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Glyfada
Mark
Feb 6, 2009 - 10:39PM
Re: Gearbox problem
Thanks Eric & Phillip for all the info. I need to get my head into the engine and find out what is going on - the copper in the oil sounds a real possibility.
Got some time off in a couple of weeks and weather permitting I will get stuck in and report back on my progress.
SeaDog Name (if owner or crew) Salia
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Graham Matthews
Feb 7, 2009 - 10:53AM
Re: Gearbox problem
Hi Mark,
I have a Perkins 4108 plus Borg Warner gearbox available that might be of interest?
see http://pub47.bravenet.com/forum/3988965758/show/816362
Graham
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